ameban ([info]ameban) wrote in [info]ameliazellove,
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Questions (II) about Zelgadiss?

Hiya!

Well, I'm back again ^^

Recentely, I told something about Zelgadiss than I think, and it caught [info]rowenathewitch 's attention. It's a topic I've think for long time.

(Under cut, quite long points)



*Mostly of Slayers fans are wrong about the "Real" reasons of Zelgadiss to become human again"

Ok, let me explain myself.
Usually, anime series use to be a "light" version than the original author work. Manga, videogames, novels, whatever, use to be more hardcore than their respective animated versions.

Slayers isn't the exception.

Wer can see than in the series/novels. For example, in the series Alphred (Amelia's cousin) is killed off by Kanziel in "Next". But in novels, he's killed off by his own father because treason. As you can see, there is a difference between being killed off by a mazoku or your own father.

Same thing with Amelia. In the series, she has far more screen time than in the novels, but thanks to Kanzaka, we know about her dark past and feelings, and everybody accepts that as "canon".

Then, why people doesn't accept the *real* reason of Zelgadiss? Why they think his reasons are only a stupid teenager complex and nothing more?

Zelgadiss' true reasons to become human aren't because he finds he's ugly and has a freak monster. Many fans think he's fine as he's, and they only think he cannot acept his chimeric condition because he's ugly. Sorry to say this, but that's a very fangirlish's thought.

The problem is, since the series are a softer version of original novels, we cannot see all the reasons behind. But if you keep a sharp eye on the begining of the first season, you can see what're those.

Those are the points:

*Zelgadiss become into chimera when he was quite young. Around 13-15 years old. In the first season he's 18 or 20, so that means he spent at least 3/4 years of his life being chimera before Rezo's dead.

*Zelgadiss' bargaing with Rezo was "I give you the power you want, and you help me to get the phylosopher's stone" So.... what kind of help you think Zelgadiss gave to Rezo?

*Zelgadiss had a very bunch of minions formed by monsters like Trolls, Weremantis, bersherkers, and such... Besides Rodimas and Zorlf, who were his only friends when he looked for the phyloshopher's stone. So... what kind of person you think should have such minions like those? Non comom people, really.

*Zelgadiss offered Lina important amounts of money in order to buy her treasure. Later, after Lina's negation, he threatened her and was attacking her till he captured her. In the manga and novels, he also threats Lina with raping her and such. That means Zelgadiss was inmoral about his methods to get the phylospher stone.

*Zelgadiss always is complaining about Rezo's evilness, and when Rezo found he could get the phylosopher's stone, he bewitched Zelgadiss to attack Lina. Later, when Zelgadiss recovered his own self, he become really uspet as he found he was manipulated in such way.

*In novels, Zelgadiss is called "Ma-senshi" or "Ma-kenshi" (Dark/evil warrior/swordman) I've seen any Japanese fanarts where Zelgadiss appear called like that and covered of blood. Here is a sample by Tounegan, a Japanese fanartis:


*In both, novels and anime, Zelgadiss isn't the only human chimera around. Here is a lista about all the chimera-guys you can find in both versions.

AIREUS: a chimera from11th Novel. I don't know what's it, but it seems Aireus is able to "copy" other people... So "it" has to be human in some sense.
BARDZ: Half human/half spider from 3rd Novel. It obeyed Copy Rezo. It wasn't a big deal, but quite scary.
CARUAS/CABDUAS: Do you remember the guy of the magic shoulderpads from Next? The one than oebeyed Dymia's orders... I don't know about the English version, but in the Spanish one, it said his shoulderpads were enchanted, and it allowed him to cast several spells at once.... Well, that's wrong. Caruas is half-human/half blown demon, very much alike Zel is. But Caruas is pretty glad with the result.
COPY REZO: On the 3rd novel, you may guess. In the anime was a copy searching for his true identity... but in novels, it's a chimera because it's a mix of a Rezo's copy and a Mazoku.... Scarryyyyy.

DELGIAR: At first, Delgiar seems to be a comom werewolf, but eventually you find out it's a mix of Werewolf+troll.
GORUS: Quimera-troll al servicio de Eris en la 3ª novela.

GROUJI: White tigger chimera than Kanziel mix with Zanaffer on 5th novel.

EBIFARE: Chimera from 12th Novel,  and as usual, it attacks Lina... I don't know if it has something human.

UCALE: On 11th novel, a chimera than followed CARIUS.

NARUF: another chimera under CARIUS' orders.

RANGUS MCSTAR: human chimera very  similar to Zel. He fights Zel in the "Zelgadiss under the Hazy Moon" Slayers spinn-off. It seems he was a soldier of his kindong, and the he agreed to become chimera in order to help his king to recover the trone--- But somethings happened.  

ZELGADISS: Well, this topic is about him ;-)

ZOMAGAIN: Another chimera from 11th novel... This time, it could create half-demons to help him.

Certainly, there is no way to Zel of being the only chimera in "Slayers" world.

 

So, do you get the idea? That's the REAL reason of Zelgadiss to become human again. He was Rezo' slave! And for him, his chimeric body is just the meaning of that. Rezo manipulated him and used him as a tool against his will. Rezo was a "Saint", and Zelgaidss was his reverse, a "demon"; he's blamed of Rezo's dirty works. That's why Zelgadiss doens't thrust easily on anybody, neither thinks people might have good feelings (till he meets Lina/Gourry, and of course, Amelia)

For him, recovering his old self, means to be free of his inmoral past and Rezo's.


As you can see, it has far more sense than just "Oh, how ugly I am!" idea.


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[info]rowenathewitch

November 6 2005, 05:40:14 UTC 6 years ago

>Later, after Lina's negation, he threatened her and was attacking her till he captured her. In the manga and novels, he also threats Lina with raping her and such. That means Zelgadiss was inmoral about his methods to get the phylospher stone.


...raping her? But in the manga it was Zolf who had the idea, and Zelgadiss was 100% against it...do you mean that in the novels it's Zel?O____o

Anyway, great job ^____^

[info]meliachu

November 6 2005, 08:16:48 UTC 6 years ago

That's an interesting spin on things and I think it seems more in character for Zelgadis than just, "Oh, I'm so ugly. ;_;" But I think the reason why most people think he doesn't want to be a chimera because of his appearance is... He's never said the reason why outright. So they just make their own assumptions.

I thought Zel didn't want to rape Lina? I think it was just Zolf's idea and Zel refused when he asked him to do it. (Although, in my translation of the novel they changed it to "Kiss her" and in the manga it was "Attack her" but the general context is still there. XP)

[info]rowenathewitch

November 6 2005, 09:50:10 UTC 6 years ago

I thought Zel didn't want to rape Lina? I think it was just Zolf's idea and Zel refused when he asked him to do it. (Although, in my translation of the novel they changed it to "Kiss her" and in the manga it was "Attack her" but the general context is still there. XP)

Really?XD
At least in Italy the manga version is not censored XD
Ehy, even if I abhor rape, it was one of the funniest moment of the manga..the little game of No One Wants To Rape Lina XD

Anyway, thanks for assuring me, guys. Our Zel can't sink as low as menacing to do nasty things to poor little girls!

[info]ameban

November 6 2005, 10:50:56 UTC 6 years ago

Well----

Yes, the fact is the anime series (the one more popular) don't explain very well his true reasons... I think it's because anime was made "for Japanese fans", who are already VERY aware about many deeds because Kazaka's Fan Club, the novels, etc. So, why they should explain it? Besides, anime series use to be more "censored" than the original version.
But you can see he hates deeply Rezo in all Slayers canons, and the begining of First series shows many odd things about Zel & Rezo.

As for the Zel/Zorlf idea of "rapping" Lina... Putting it clear:I've seen so many versions (and I think any of them is the real one) than I'm not sure about what happens realy. The only thing I know is Zel wasn't really thrilled with the idea, but quite offensed.

[info]beccastareyes

November 6 2005, 08:25:30 UTC 6 years ago

Quoted from the first novel, page 106-107 (Tokyopop translation). From the scene where Zelgadis, Rodimus, Zolf, Dilgear and Noonsa have captured Lina Inverse and are waiting for Gourry (and the Philosopher's Stone) to show up

"Well, in any case, we'll need to keep you [Lina] alive until your companion turns up," he [Zelgadis] said. "Zolf, do what you like with her, but don't kill her."

Zelgadis is never more specific than that, but everyone present seems to interpret it as a threat of rape. Of course, he also tells Zolf that he isn't willing to help him with this, explaining that "I have no interest in mkaing little girls cry". (page 112) Which paints an interesting portait of him there.

[info]beccastareyes

November 6 2005, 08:26:12 UTC 6 years ago

And this was supposed to be in reply to the other two posts. I lose.

[info]ameban

November 6 2005, 10:57:14 UTC 6 years ago

I figured out...

That's my point... As far I seen, none real version we know shows what happened really. It seems all they have been censored somehow.

Anyway, Zel has certain "honor code" in all his incarnations. But in that scene, Zel doens't seem to care very much for Lina as he gets what he wants. He just want to be apart of Zorlf's and Dirgia's whereabouts.
The only one than turly doesn't want to be mixed with such things is Rodimus.

--- Perhaps Zel learned somethings from the old knight?

[info]earthstar_moon

November 6 2005, 08:46:40 UTC 6 years ago

(nods) Yup, that does make sense.

Although, I think it's easy to make that "He hates how he looks" mistake, because most people have probably only seen the anime so far and in the anime he seems more self conisous about his appearance. Remember in episode 2 of next when Zel said something about "You all just think I'm a traveling freakshow" or something. Although, I could have misworded that quote, it's been awhile since I've watched that episode and he could have been having one of his famous angst moments. ^_^;

Anyway, my point is that the Slayers novels (in North America anyway) have only been translated recently, so that's probably why most fans don't think about Zel REAL reason for wanting his human body back. That's just what I think.

[info]ameban

November 6 2005, 11:34:59 UTC 6 years ago

Aha

The translation also is different in the Spanish version... and I bet the Italian and German ones also are far different, since they were quite censored.

Certainly, in 2sd NEXT episodie Lina teases Zel about his looks. But in other chapters, we can see Zel is quite ashamed of his looks in the "Artel's Tower" chapter (when he gets dressed as a bunny) or the Femille's chapter, when get gets "womanized". Instead, his chimeric condition isn't an obstacle to chat with Miwan O_o

As far I know, English version of Slayers novels also have been censored in some points. Whatever is it, Japanese fans have a different view of Zel, and if you look carefuly at the points of avobe, I think it's the cause.

[info]earthstar_moon

November 6 2005, 11:50:47 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Aha

As far I know, English version of Slayers novels also have been censored in some points. Whatever is it, Japanese fans have a different view of Zel, and if you look carefuly at the points of avobe, I think it's the cause.

It's just astounding how different a character can appear to people in different countries. Comparing the views sounds like it would make an interesting sociology essay. ^_^;

[info]ameban

November 14 2005, 03:26:44 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Aha

Yeah, you're right.

I don't know about English native fans, but since I can understand English and Spanish both, and I've touched the Japanese fandom... I get a general idea about the issue. And you're right, every nation has a different view of same facts.

Without any doub, the most important things than cause that are "censure" and "doub". For Example, Martina is quite loved in Spain just because her doubing... and Italian version was censored even almost 10 minutes per chapter!

I guess Japanese fans usually are closer to the truth than foreing fans

[info]rowenathewitch

November 15 2005, 03:17:08 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Aha

and Italian version was censored even almost 10 minutes per chapter!
Naaaa...fortunately, that's not true ;)
In the first season only two scenes were cut (the one with Lina taking a bath while Phil and his brother are watching and the one in which Lina starts bleeding after being hit by Rezo)
But the dialogues were adapted badly...and not even because of censures..some lines were changed totally randomly 0_o
For example the famous Z/A scenes in which Zel says to Ame "Good job" is changed into "go find a covering spot....*mega smile*...and quickly" (WHAT?)

The second season..is pure madness. It seems that the adaptators ship Z/A XD since they added a lot of Z/A lines that weren't in the original script.
For example in the second episode Ame says "Even if you don't have peach skin I like you anyway" or in another episode when Amelia kills a bunch of slugs she says "Why don't we use all of them for a candle lit dinner together, Zel?" (LOL)
On the contrary, the censors cut most of the REAL Z/A scenes...for example the one in which Zel gets sliced in half by Garv instead of Amelia (too much blood I think), or when Amelia gets hit badly and Zel is worried...and the last 3 episodes of Next were sliced and condensated into ONE episode (so no Zel carrying Amelia ;_;)
When I watched the japanese version of Next on DVDs it seemed like a different anime XD
Only one scene cut in the third season (Xelloss hitting Valgarv's arm with his staff)

I sometimes wonder why I became a Z/A shipper by watching the italian adaptation first XD

[info]beccastareyes

November 6 2005, 09:49:34 UTC 6 years ago

It's possible that Zelgadis gives the appearance reason to people because the real reason would give them far too much information about what's going on in his head. He likes to hold people at a distance, so telling them how he really feels about Rezo, besides 'I hate him' would bring them too close to him.

Also possible that Zelgadis doesn't really think about it besides 'I hate being a chimera, so I'm going to fix it', and doesn't really explore why he hates it.

Ah, complexity.

[info]ameban

November 14 2005, 03:31:37 UTC 6 years ago

Well

I don't think it makes so much sense. He's surrounded by people than is familiarized with such things.. He shouldn't hid it like that.
Same thing with other people. It never stoped him to talk with others along it serves to him (i.e. the Tennis Match, or the Alto VS Baritone episodies)

But he always talks about Rezo as "very mean person"... Even if in the anime and manga he forgives him somehow, he still having a deep thing against Rezo.
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